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Telluride Film Festival, 2017: Mark Danner Interviews Mohammad Rasoulof
MARK DANNER & MOHAMMAD RASOULOF
MD: First I just want to say what a pleasure it is to be on
this phone call. And what a moving extraordinary powerful film Mohammad has
made, so it’s a pleasure to do this.
MR: Me too, thank you for your kind words.
MD: Let me ask first, one of the things that struck me is
that in previous—in some of your previous films, notably Manuscripts Don’t Burn the antagonist, as it were, was much more of
the regime. And this film, it seems to be much larger than that. The antagonist
seems to be larger. And I wonder how you might characterize that.
MR: I just want to give an explanation here, that has to do
with the film’s title in Farsi, LERD,. LERD as a word is what falls to the
bottom when you make wine. It’s the sediment or dregs. And that is the Farsi
title of the film.
The meaning of LERD for me, when I chose the word as the
title of the film it was because I believed many problems started first from
levels that were higher up, from the level of politics, those that are in power
and gradually they came and settled within the general culture. Now you can no
longer look for the problem within politics. It now resides in the place that
belongs to everyone. It has penetrated the general culture and things are much
worse that what I had believed.
MD: So LERD in a sense, to him represents a kind of
transformation of the entire world, of people’s relations, that is actually
affected, originally affected or caused by politics?
MR: It is precisely that. One could say that it starts in
politics and penetrates the structures of education and then from within that
structure it enters social institutions where it is transformed into something
that is at the very heart of popular culture.
MD: That’s beautifully said. It’s fascinating to me that
Hadis for example, when she tries to use the techniques of corruption herself
as principal of the school, it backfires on her because she is coping with
someone who in a sense is much more fundamentally corrupt Abbas. And it seems
to me that there’s some kind of basic corruption, even before the government,
of corruption of tribe and of power.
MR: This is very correct, but we must keep in mind that a
new class has taken shape that is composed differently, that is its own tribe,
made up of people who seek to be close to the ruling body, they may not belong
the ruling body, but they make themselves resemble them, for their personal profit,
for their group's benefit, they create a space where the central power is
nourished, while they themselves also begin to grow in girth, expand and become
pervasive. A large portion of the members of this new class consist of military
and paramilitary groups
MD: That’s fascinating.
MR: You can even identify some of these groups that are
trying to kind of stick with the centers of power, within elites. [very unclear
what he means by elites, the word is very generic].
MD: That’s a fascinating answer. I wanted to ask about a bit
about the protagonist, Reza, that actor seems to me to give an absolutely
extraordinary performance. I think an American or European audience to some
degree might identify it, or find that he recalls a bit, the figure of Job—the
long-suffering noble man, the man who’s being tested in his belief and his
integrity. And yet, Reza is different from Job in that he eventually proves to
be better at working the system than almost anyone. I wonder if you had thought
of this comparison before and if you think it is at all relevant to who Reza
is.
MR: I think this comparison with Job is a really interesting
comparison, but what attracts my attention where Reza is concerned is seeing this
character within the social structure of Iran. The role of that structure is
indispensable. What, in my opinion, ultimately drags Reza into the game is the
structure; and the forces he faces, his antagonist, is this structure that is comprised
of the forces of power, of capital, and of those who, in order to attain that
power and that capital will attach themselves to the governing body.
MD: I was going to say in the end he is able, when he
decides to, in a sense, take part in the system, he’s able to triumph as a
strong player in the system as it exists.
MR: The truth is that Reza did not want to enter this game.
The film begins at a point where he’s run away from a society that wants to
dissolve him inside itself, a structure that wants to dissolve him within
itself. He's run away from the capital. He's run away and come to the north of
Iran where he's made a place for himself and he wishes to be his own man. In truth
we meet Reza's character in a place where he has already lost once.
And he's chosen not to win. Given the choice between being a
tyrant or a victim, he’s decided to choose neither. He's separated himself. But so long as he insists on preserving
his integrity, others treat him as though he were an idiot. There’s a scene in
the film where he goes into a coffee shop and nobody sees him because
everyone’s playing the game. In the end, however, when he has taken his
revenge, and when in order to defend himself he has turned to a form of
incursion into other people’s rights, then he gets respect from society. And
what this is trying to say is that for me what matters is to see here how
society strives to make him seek shelter in one transgressor against another transgressor.
MD: Yes, I see that and that’s beautifully stated I think. I
have only one more question, the coffee shop scene I think is very vivid and I
remember it well. The other series of scenes that I think are some of the most
beautiful in the film, take place in the cave. And it’s almost as if Reza has
run to Tehran to the North and now he’s retreating to the cave, the beautiful
cave itself. I wonder if you can say something about these scenes? They seem
almost autobiographical. They’re so powerful.
MR: (laughs) Yes, it’s my personal experience.
MD: (laughs) I thought that, something told me that.
MR: Yes, it’s my personal experience. I don’t know how wise
it is to state it. Solitude is frightening, when you live in a society where
you don’t wish to surrender to social norms. And day by day you grow lonelier,
and the only choice that remains for you is to withdraw and to be alone with
yourself.
For me, Reza is a pleasing experience in the sense that each
time that anything from the outside puts him under pressure he’s able to seek
and find an inner sense of serenity, a little bit like the fish immersed in
water, he attempts to simplify life and with his homemade wine, to forget the
thing that's in front of his face, or behind him, that's happened in the past.
It's his only defense mechanism.
MD: Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us.
And we’re so excited to have this extraordinary, extraordinary film at
Telluride.
MR: Thank you and I hope I will be able to meet you soon, I
have an appointment tomorrow morning in the U.S. Embassy in Munich, and I hope
I am able to obtain a visa.
MD: We all hope so too, we hope to see you too. And
congratulations on the film.